Michael Moore, James Dobson and their ilk

Pam,

How do you know they aren't honest? Give me one example of something that is a lie in Sicko, or any other Michael Moore film. Anything? Sure, the health insurance companies have their lobbyists go through the film frame by frame and all they can come up with are piddling little nits; "He said the Cubans spend $250.00 per person per year, when they actually spend $275.00 per person per year, so he must be a pathological liar." That is what these guys do; any woman who tells the truth is a "scorned woman" (see Anita Hill) any insider who tells the truth is a "disgruntled former employee. (see Valerie Plame)" Twenty-seven generals sign a letter saying Bush is lying about Iraq? Fire them, get some butt kissers in there who want promotions.

You say, "Evidently VP Gore's movie about our environment is now being refuted by some of the very experts he used." Who? Name one. The film has been hailed worldwide; every industrialized country in the world knows that global warming is a FACT.

You say, "Would somebody without an agenda please choose to give us the real scoop." Well, first of all I sorta resent you calling me a liar by inference, but beyond that, you don't want the truth, you couldn't handle the truth, you want someone to tell you "You are right, your husband is right, there is nothing to worry about. Everything will be fine."

Part 2

Lord, I can't believe you put Al Gore, and Michael Moore in the same class as James Dobson. Do you ever read anything but Harry Potter? I've read both of Ann Coulters books, have you? I read "See, I told You So" by Rush Limbaugh, did you? I read "The Heritage Guide to the Constitution" by Ed Meese, did you? I read "State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America" by Pat Buchanan, did you? Have you ever read a book by James Carville, Al Franken, or Christopher Hitchins? I didn't think so.

Living in this country isn't just an honor; there are duties involved. You must question authority, it's your job. I don't know about anybody else, but this ain't my first rodeo. In the past 40 years I've read books by the Grand Dragon of the KKK, I read "Soul on Ice" by Eldridge Cleaver, did you? I'm an atheist and I've read the Bible cover to cover twice, have you?

I'll debate you and all your friends, jointly or severally, and I'll footnote every "agenda driven" word I say. I never talk about things I don't know about, do you? You may want to think you are a moderate, but you talk like a right wing stooge. Because people in the red states believe anything this administration spouts, that fits in to their xenophobic world view, and never ask questions, 3,582 kids, 19 - 20 year old kids, the same age as Brie kids, are dead. How would you feel about the war if Brie could be drafted? Have you encouraged her to enlist? Counting Iraqis, the low estimate of the cost of Bush's war is 68,347 lives. You are way too smart to fall for this shit, read more.

Ol Hippie, must your method of argument include personal attacks? A learned general who crashes through underbrush loses a lot of followers!
My comment on this list was going to be...I have not seen Michael Moore films nor do I want to. His titles convey his objective. If someone wants to throw an apple pie in my face, I don't want it, even if apple pie IS my favorite!
I WANTED to see an Incovenient Truth. It was great and I believe it. It bears common sense....but then, I believed it before I saw it.

Pam, I suggest to anyone who believes lock stock and barrel "An Inconvienient Truth" to also view the video call "Doomsday Called Off" It is a documentary that you can watch online. It is produced by scientists and has only scientists on the video. No politicians or actors are to be found. It refutes many of the claims that the mainstream media and politicians called unrefuted facts. I urge everyone to watch this video. It is informative which i think will give everyone pause to at least come to the conclusion that not all scientists agree with the Al Gore version of global warming. I by they way feel that we all need to be good stewards of our earth. We recycle, try to buy local produce whenever possible and try not to be excessive in my use of products , but find it offensive when politicians, and actors tell me what I should do ,but feel that it doesn't include them for they are special and they use carbon offsets( what a fraud.) Pleas I urge everyone to watch this video to see another side to this issue.

I also read an articoe in the Wall Street Jousnal last week called Hurricanes and Hot Air. I t was weitten by William Gray, professor emiritus in the Dept of Atmospheric Science at Colorado State university and a research fellow at the Independent Institute. He has been issuing Atlantic basin seasonal hurricane forecasts for thepast 14 years. He says that there is not the connection between global warming and hurricanes that others have said is the case. I encourage all to read the article

Even if I don't read anything, by anyone...I think the burden of humans on our natural resources is dramatic, and it is a common sense matter, not political. We cannot exist without impact and it makes sense as our physical presence grows, so does our effect.
AND as the grandma..or someone...said, it is a lot easier to let the bird out of the cage than to get him back in...The hurricanes may not be the result of global warming, but we WILL regret squandering our resources if we reach the point of no return.
I would wager a bet red, blue, green, yellow, and brown would all agree with this...until it becomes politics.

Okay, now I MUST go deal with my own enviromental disasters before this Saturday progresses to the point of no return!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3309910462407994295

This is the site for the video " Doomsday Called Off." It isabout 44 minutes long.

Good comments by all. Without getting into the finer points of Iraq or global warming, I think the true lesson is that we should all (not saying anyone isn't) consume as much information on all these topics as possible from as many different sources as possible.

Way to keep the peace, Noah. :)
After reading this list, I had a lot to say, but I think everyone has said it for me. I gave the list 5 stars; not because I agree with it, but because it sure got some great discussion going.

Well gee KB I didn't realize I had attacked anyone personally. Telling someone they are misinformed isn't a personal attack, telling them they sound like a stooge isn't a personal attack. Implying that someone is lying and has an agenda just because they are more informed than you are is a personal attack. I don't know about the war simile, my favorite general was Patton.

It is your perogative to not see Sicko, I respect that; but if, without seeing it you offer a blanket condemnation, and insinuate it is full of lies, I am going to call your bluff and say, "give me an example" every single time.

I attended a lecture by Dr. Gray, a couple of years ago in Tampa. He did indeed say that the whackos are to quick to blame global warming for all of the climactic anomolies we see. And I agree. He said that global warming was only one factor among many, some natural, some man made. If that is not what he said, please point out my error.

So, I just watched the video "Doomsday Called Off" as suggested. I didn't see one shred of evidence, all I saw was scientists saying, "The model they used is not perfect. A lot of this stuff has happened before. It MAY not be as bad as thay think"

Then I went a step further. I don't drink the koolaid without checking. I found this:

http://www.cicero.uio.no/webnews.asp?id=10572&lang=en

Again, tell me where I'm wrong. Don't tell me I'm a mean asshole, we already know that.

Mr. Gray says in the last sentence of his article" the spate of recent destructive hurricanes may have little or nothing to do with greenhouse gases and climate change, and everything to do with the Atlantic Ocean's currents." This south to north upper level water motion and the compensating north to south deep level water motion is called the thermoline circulation or (THC). Very intersting info in this article. It was in the Wall Street journal within the last two weeks. I think what we can acknowledge is there is a debate on the subject and I think we are lead to believe that that it is established fact that global warming is all man made- when really that is only a theory. There are the warming theory advocates that use climate modeling and not observational experience. Mr. Gray's sentiment is that they are "not fully aware of how the real atmosphere and ocean function." He feels they rely more on theory than observation. So there are two thoughts on this and I think it is wrong to assume that the man made global warming theory is the only accurate one.

:-)Hi Ol Hippie and ccd.

I believe we all are striving for the same...be a good steward, be our brother's keeper. (a famous OMLister used that phrase and I like it.) We have the same goal, different methods (politics).
We know any word, sentence, paragraph, article, bit of information, whatever...can be construed to the purpose desired...so what I was trying to say was I think we have to throw in a large dose of common sense or gut feeling when we view and choose what propaganda to view. It is propaganda (material designed to convince or sway a viewpoint) and it is the tool of all causes.

Anyhoo.
I am not making anymore comments on this list.
I am feeling the heat and getting out of the kitchen!

See you on another list!

Dang, that was interesting.
Thanks for the input Ol Hippie
Thanks for the defense kb
Thanks for the Doomsday Called Off suggestion ccd
Thanks for the 5 stars herknees
Thanks for the 'pause and take a breath' Noah

This is what makes the world go 'round.

PS - I love Christopher Hitchens
& I have a son who has considered enlisting - we support him either way.

This will also be my last comment on this list. I totally agree that we all should want the same thing, to leave our children and grandchilodren (even though, as I might have mentioned I have no grandchildren, but that is another list) a planet at least as good as the one our parents left us. I will, and did, readily admit, Dr. Gray did say that the spate of hurricanes in 2005 probably had very little to do with global warming. He also said we need to start taking global warming seriously while there was still time to do something. He also said the government needed to fund much more research to develop better models. As a response, Bush put a political hack in as the head of the National Hurricane Center (he has since been forced out), and cut NOAA's budget for the sixth straight year.

http://www.aaas.org/spp/rd/doc06p.pdf

I love a good tussle.

Great debate everyone!!! It's debate that sort's out the bad info and uniformly spreads the correct info.

However,

Has anyone stopped to think about how much Al Gore is making off of this movie. I don't mean FROM the movie, it's the collateral "benefits" that go with. $500,000 or more for a speaking engagement. He is an ex-vice prez, he was commanding a good dollar before.

The movie wasn't a bad thing, Global warming is a sad reality of our years of raping the planet for our pleasure and mother nature's natural cycle.

This movie hopefully informed a lot of people.

All I'm saying is that Al had his own agenda too, all politicians do.... even ex politicians. :)